12:14 PM
Leanne D. Baldwin
It didn't matter because Kucinich had his chosen ax already prepared for grinding, regardless. In fact, I'm not entirely convinced that Kucinich even listened to the speech.
Apparently, it doesn't matter that the president acted as part of a broad coalition, that our role has been specific and limited, or that we are turning control of the operation over to other countries. To Kucinich, it's all just black and white, no room for petty realities that fall between those extremes of the spectrum.
At least Rep. Anthony Weiner (D-NY) seems to grasp the difference between (falsely) preemptive, unprovoked war (*cough* Bush *cough*) and military action to prevent genocide.
Here's the video of these two congressmen giving their perspectives. I'll provide a transcript if possible later.
EDIT: MSNBC's transcript of the video is now available.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Much of the debate in Washington has put forward a false choice when it comes to Libya. On the one hand, some question why America should intervene at all, even in limited ways in this distant land. To brush aside America‘s responsibility as a leader and more profoundly, our responsibilities to our fellow human beings under such circumstances, would have been a betrayal of who we are.
Some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries. The United States of America is different. And as president, I refuse to wait for the images of slaughter and mass graves before taking action.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O‘DONNELL: In the House of Representatives, a rare coalition of Republicans and Democrats wants to shut down U.S. military intervention in Libya.
Democrat Dennis Kucinich, Pete Stark and Lynn Woolsey, along with Republicans Ron Paul, Walter Jones and Tom McClintock plan to offer a bipartisan amendment to cut off funds for U.S. participation in the NATO enforced no-fly zone.
Did President Obama say anything tonight that would make any of them reconsider?
Joining me now are: Congressman Dennis Kucinich and Congressman Anthony Weiner.
Thanks for joining us tonight, congressmen.
REP. ANTHONY WEINER (D), NEW YORK: Thank you.
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D), OHIO: Thank you
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Kucinich, did you hear anything from the president tonight that changed your thinking about this?
KUCINICH: No, I heard an Obama doctrine, which war is an executive privilege. And I also heard him make statements that sounded eerily reminiscent of George Bush saying he wasn‘t going to wait for gathering dangers. We all know how Iraq turned out, lest we forget, we were misled into war.
And I‘m very concerned that this new executive privilege for war that‘s being asserted here isn‘t mindful of the fact that the president also admitted that he had 21 days to put together this alliance, but he didn‘t come to the House of Representatives to ask for approval to go to war. And breaking down the first article of the Constitution, and basically asserting this executive privilege for war actually abolishes the dynamic equilibrium that has protected this country and kept us out of some wars because some presidents thought they had to come to Congress. Now, we‘re in dangerous territory here.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Weiner, the United States Senate on March 1st, on a resolution sponsored by Senators Gillibrand, Bernie Sanders, your senior senator, Chuck Schumer, Ron Wyden and others, Democrats, they voted unanimously—Senate voted unanimously to call for a no-fly zone in Libya. The president tonight said that for us to have stood by and watched the slaughter of innocents in Libya by the thousands would have been a betrayal of who we are. Is that true?
WEINER: Yes. I mean, look, what‘s the point of being a powerful country with high ideals if we don‘t ever lift a finger to do anything about it. You know, I respect Dennis Kucinich, but this really is a false choice. You can‘t always make the argument that while it is not a bright line, clear example of when we should use force. They very barely, rarely present themselves in foreign policy. We have a lot of difficult gray areas.
But I think the president was right to say we want to have to make sure that the Arab states support this, that we don‘t want to be the front edge of every single effort.
And, listen, I agree with Dennis Kucinich, I think the Congress should have been consulted and we should have had a word here. But let‘s separate the issues.
Then the issue isn‘t whether the president is doing the right thing and exercising the power of our country to try to defend people, to try to be that beacon that we always that we would be in. I think the president struck that right tone.
Let me just say thing else—you know, you can probably get six people opposed to just about anything President Obama does. But I don‘t think we should be giving aid to those that are simply oppositionist to the president at all terms.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Kucinich, if the president had consulted with Congress, do you believe there would have been an overwhelming voice from Congress saying, “Don‘t do this”?
KUCINICH: You know, we don‘t know because he didn‘t consult with them. But I will say this, that the no-fly zone, which is why the president said, you know, he said we got to go in the direction of a no-fly zone, but we‘ve already gone beyond the U.N. mandate. We‘ve gone beyond to stopping Gadhafi‘s advance, and now to assisting the rebels. We intervened in a civil war.
And there is no question while the president says he wants regime change but says he doesn‘t want the military involved in that, the military is creating circumstances towards regime change by assisting the rebels and providing cover for them as they advance. I mean, we have to—we have to understand what‘s really going on here.
And what is mystifying to me is this—you call, I don‘t have any brief for Gadhafi, but you call his government illegitimate. In 2003, he was involved in dealings with the IMF. And the World Bank had a broad privatization scheme visited upon Libya which resulted in about 20 percent unemployment in Libya, which is one of the reasons you have a restive population. Now, there‘s some contradiction here that hasn‘t been reconciled, nor talked about.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Weiner, what was the alternative facing the president?
WEINER: I was just going to say that exact same question. You know, the 2003 IMF measure means very little to someone having their house blown up or being dragged out of their house and shot by one of Gadhafi‘s tyrants. I mean, the fact is that this was a very circumstance we were faced it.
I think the president did the right thing. And Secretary Clinton did the right thing by saying, you know what, we‘ll be involved and we don‘t want to be the entire force. I think he was right to say here are the parameters by what we‘ll do to get involved and here are the goals we‘re going to move forward on.
Again, I agree, I would have liked to see the House of Representatives dealing with this rather than defunding NPR last week, but I really don‘t think the president had a lot of other options. And also this, there have to be values that guide when we get involved in military engagements and I think the president articulated them perfectly tonight.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Kucinich, the president said, “Some nations may be able to turn a blind eye to atrocities in other countries, the United States of America is different, and as president, I refuse to wait for the images of slaughter and mass graves before taking action.”
KUCINICH: Well, this is a new Obama doctrine, which is that you act on threats. Remember, that‘s what George Bush did. He said we had weapons of mass—that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. And so, here we are, $3 trillion later for the long term cost of the war, deaths of thousands of our troops, deaths to millions of Iraqis, civilians have died as a result of the conflict. And we‘ve got to be careful about slipping into these wars.
And not even to get into the issue for too long, of can we afford it, can we trash our domestic agenda when the Pentagon is already taking over 50 percent of discretionary spending of the United States and we are paying 25 percent of the bill for NATO? I mean, one, a discount is no good in any event, and we are really at a point here in our country‘s history where we are buying into a form of militarism that could take us anywhere in the world.
It might make us feel good for a few days. But once a civil war starts and we get enmeshed like we are enmeshed in Afghanistan and Iraq, it‘s not going to feel so good after awhile.
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Weiner, the president kept stressing phrases, like, “in this particular country,” “at this particular time,” “unique ability.” He seemed to be making a one-off case here. He didn‘t seem to be make ago case for doing anything like this elsewhere, unless all those same conditions applied, which they are unlikely to anywhere else in the world.
WEINER: Well, because I think he was setting up the answer to the question: how is this different from Yemen? How is it different from the Sudan?
The fact of the matter is, all of these cases are to some degree unique, and I empathize with Dennis Kucinich‘s point. You know, you would like to never have to use military engagement. You‘d like to never have to take up arms in another country.
But, you know, I wonder what it is about our country that makes us different, and one of the things is that we stand up and defend certain values and principles. And I think of something else, I think that when you‘re in an international organization like NATO and when you‘re involved with allies in the Middle East, and we‘re always saying we want to be there to try to be a good friend and neighbor to these countries, when they turn to us and ask for help stopping a massacre, how do you say no? How do you explain to the world if we say no?
O‘DONNELL: Congressman Kucinich and Congressman Weiner—thank you very much for joining me tonight.
WEINER: Thank you.
KUCINICH: Thank you.
